Backup Power Supply for models...!

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retiredVTT
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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by retiredVTT » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:12 pm

MarkL wrote:If Rx brownout protection is you main concern there is also this:
http://www.spektrumrc.com/products/defa ... id=spm1600

or the cheaper HK version:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... ector.html

... I don't know Mark..did you see the Spektrum note that said.."This Voltage Protector is not intended for Aircraft use."

We are trying to protect a several hundred dollar investment, so maybe a $1.99 solution is cutting corners a bit much.

Bill
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MarkL
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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by MarkL » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:17 pm

I've read some comments of people using them on planes and solving their brownout issues. I guess you need to keep it a bit away from the Rx itself however.

I personally don't think either is needed to be honest, if you manage your main pack. I usually time mine and land well before 80% is used. But the Scorpion one does look interesting, bit more weight and another point of potential failure as well. I guess it all depends on what you are putting it on as well if it warrants the need or not. It wouldn't offer me much on a multicopter :-

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retiredVTT
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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by retiredVTT » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:37 pm

No, it's like any insurance deal...depends what you are trying to protect. (like if you hung a $1000. camera under your multi..!)

Not for my foamies, but a Hangar9 Corsair at 7 lbs with a 5S lipo cracking 1300 Watts, yup..a $30 standby device just might help bring her home.

Got my order in...$3.50 shipping was not too painful.

Bill
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AndrewS
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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by AndrewS » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:12 pm

Ordered last monday...here today.
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BrianW
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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by BrianW » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:08 pm

I've been looking into the issue of brownouts in a bit more detail lately since I've been experiencing them when I was bench-testing the Electra I'm building. The issue I've had is more to do with the linear BEC in the ESC overheating than with the main pack being too low. Most of the ESCs that have linear BECs (rather than switching) are ridiculously overrated. As an example, consider the one I'm using for the Electra:

Mystery 30A BEC Brushless Speed Controller (Blue Series)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=9483

Spec.
Amp rating: 30A
Burst Rate (10sec): 40A
BEC Output : 5.0V / 3A
Voltage: 7.4-11.1V (2-3 cell Lipo/5-10 NiCd)
Dimensions: 43x23x6mm
Weight: 25g

Now, if you run this on 3S, like I am, than in order to produce a 5V output from the BEC then the voltage regulators on the ESC are going to need to drop somewhere around 7V (assuming about 12V from the pack under load when charged). At 3A out, this would be 21W dissipated in the regulators - there are 3, and looking at the datasheet they are rated for an absolute max of 1A each. There is absolutely no way that those parts can handle that much heat, especially with the heatsink being on the other side of the ESC, and there being no air movement (on the bench). In practice, I find that the BEC portion starts browning out at around 0.6-0.7A continuous. This equates to about 4-5W being dissipated in that area of the ESC, which I would find much more realistic (and is closer to what I might expect a design like this to do). During the brownouts, I can measure the voltage gradually dropping until it goes into the 3.5-4V range, where the AR6200 I was using began having issues and losing its lock. I'm starting to suspect that this is the cause of an awful lot of the 'radio troubles' that tend to bring down planes - I can easily see getting to these currents even with smaller servos if the linkages were binding at all.

Unfortunately, if this is the cause of your brownout, then the capacitor linked to earlier will have virtually no effect. Under the loads I was looking at (2 mini/micro size servos moving continuously under no mechanical load) the 3300 uF would give you somewhere around 10 ms at best before your receiver would be at 3V and shutting off. In practice, genuine Spektrum receivers seem to shut off at about 3.5V from my testing. The real reason Spektrum sells these capacitors is to help reduce brownouts induced by static for RC cars - the static is a higher frequency effect, so the capacitor does genuinely help to smooth out the voltage in that case.

The only thing this really helps with in airplanes is if you have any switching noise from the BEC, if you are using a switching type. Out of curiosity, I did try putting 6800uF of capacitance on the linear BEC output to see if I observed any difference at all. There might have been a VERY slight improvement in the frequency of the brownouts, but I certainly wouldn't trust a plane to it, since I could see it still browning out, just about 2/3 as often as before.

My conclusions are that I would derate most of the linear BEC outputs by a factor of 3-5 at 3S from what they claim, and anything with servos bigger than the 9g ones is going to get a switching BEC, either as part of the ESC or standalone. The linear BECs are probably fine at 2S, and in the smaller planes there is typically only one voltage regulator on the ESC, so they would be able to run closer to their rating (maybe 1/2). There are some 3 Amp Turnigy switching BECs for $4-5 that look good to me (although they claim 5A max: that's false, since the part they're using is only good to 3A, but they are genuinely capable of 3A). I've got a few on the way.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=4319

If you wanted to put in a capacitor capable of doing anything (like helping with the additional load of retracts) Hobbyking has a couple of supercapacitors that would be able to source current for a couple of seconds, rather than a few ms. They can be found at the links below. In most cases, though, I think a bigger switching BEC is probably a better bet for the weight. I did order the first one for my RC sailboat to help ride through the sail being pulled in, but in that case it's just running off a Nimh receiver pack, so I just wanted a little better instantaneous current capability.

Turnigy Voltage Protector 550000uf (1.4sec)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17098

Turnigy Voltage Protector 783333uf (3sec)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... duct=17100

Of course, I also think the Scorpion product Bill started the thread with looks like a good idea too. But I figured I'd post this before everyone ran out and bought the capacitors thinking it would make their planes safe.

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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by bdg » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:29 pm

I have just recently used three separate TM1000 telemetry transmitters interfaced to my DX8. While the standard system provides temperature and voltage of the battery (I've been using the outer terminals of the balance plug), it also provides the number of frame holds, receiver voltage, min and max recorded, etc. For the units tested thus far, my noted minimum receiver voltage was 4.6V.... but I will definitely keep a closer eye on this.

I am a little curious if there would be any conflict with the Scorpion BEC with a linear or switched BEC from the ESC?? Many switched power supplies cannot be connected in parallel due to the construction....

Brian

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Re: Backup Power Supply for models...!

Unread post by retiredVTT » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:55 am

Better ESC's have come down so much in price from what we had just five years ago that I will not buy an esc that does not have a "switching BEC". The first thing you see on the label is that this type can handle a much higher source voltage..usually 6S which few of us use. Secondly they can usually provide power to four servos under load, even the non switching Scorpion escs are only rated to handle three servos when used with a 4S lipo.

I have Turnigy Plush or Sentry esc's in 40, 60, and 80 amp sizes and have not had a problem with any of them while running 4S lipos with four servos. Also the standard rule is to only go 75% of the esc's value. If you might draw 30amp use at least a 40amp. I have had planes where I had to put the esc outside the model so it would not cutout. Those were the days..!

Your correct about the over-rating scheme.....it seems we have to take most ratings with a grain of salt..!

This new Scorpion Backup is two devices in one convienient pack.....a receiver pack and a voltage regulator..with one simple connection.

Bill
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